Understanding the roots of extremism in Québec

[00:00:09] Karine Morin: Welcome to the Big Thinking Podcast, where we discuss the most important and interesting issues of our time with leading researchers in the humanities and social sciences. I'm Karine Morin, President and CEO of the Federation for the Humanities and Social Sciences, and I'm pleased to host today's episode.

[00:00:29] Is the rise of radical groups in Québec and across Canada an isolated phenomenon, or the mirror image of a worrying global trend? In this episode, we explore the definition of extremism, as well as the ideologies and growing impact of right-wing extremist groups. 

[00:00:47] I'm pleased to welcome an expert in the field, Frédérick Nadeau, who holds a master's degree in anthropology from Université Laval and a doctorate in urban studies from the Institut national de la recherche scientifique. Welcome, Professor Nadeau, it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you. 

[00:01:05] To begin, I wanted to ask this first question, what led you to direct your research towards these extremist groups?

[00:01:15] Frédérick Nadeau: There are several elements. In fact, you could almost say that it's a whole life path that led me to focus on the subject of right-wing extremism in Québec. But you could go back as far as the first time I set foot in a public library - I must have been six or seven years old.

[00:01:39] I'd been so impressed by these thousands of books lined up on the shelves, and then I knew, from that moment on, that my goal was going to be to write books, I wanted to become a scientist, do science, write books. So that was my first step into the world of research, I'd say, but more specifically into the issues of right-wing extremism.

[00:02:06] So we go back to when I was a teenager, I was listening to punk and all that, so clearly I was politicized quite early on about social issues, political issues and all that. And then, as I got a little older, I turned a little more towards Ska music. 

[00:02:28] So that was the early 2000s. There was a bit of a Ska wave, so it's part of the teen counter-culture and all that. And then the Skinhead movement emerged from that counter-culture. Basically, the Skinhead movement is an anti-racist movement that emerged from the encounter between young English workers from working-class neighborhoods.

[00:02:58] And then it really caught my attention, I really started to think about that question. Then I was doing my master's degree on the question of cosmopolitanism, so being a citizen of the world. So the question I was asking myself was: do young people today consider themselves cosmopolitan, do they consider themselves citizens of the world?

[00:03:19] And then the hypothesis I was making was that yes, to a certain extent, and I wanted to check, but these young people were born into a diverse society with high immigration rates, a society that is becoming more pluralized and diversified. 

[00:03:36] The internet era is also in contact with things, films, food, things that come from all over the world and I hypothesized that this would make these young people more open to diversity.

[00:03:52] And then it was a real surprise to find that they were much less so than I'd anticipated. When I asked them about their relationship with otherness, their construction of their identity and all that, I could really see that there was a certain identity withdrawal.

[00:04:14] So there were really postures that were more against diversity, that were closed to diversity. It was a real shock for me because I wasn't expecting it. That's when I finally said to myself, I'm going to dig even deeper into this question in the context of a doctorate.

[00:04:34] So it's really a long journey that led me to want to look at these groups more specifically, as part of my PhD research.

[00:04:44] Karine Morin: And it's still just as relevant today as when you started your work. 

[00:04:48] Frédérick Nadeau: Absolutely.

[00:04:50] Karine Morin: You've just alluded to having been in dialogue at a certain level with these people. Tell us a little about your research methods, the sources of information you considered in order to establish the state of things with this extreme right in Québec.

[00:05:06] Frédérick Nadeau: I'm an anthropologist by training, and as an anthropologist, what we particularly like to do is fieldwork, because as you said in your question, these movements are still a social phenomenon that's very central and important today. When I started my research, I was expecting to work a little on micro-cultures - it was then 2010, and they were just beginning to emerge.

[00:05:38] So what I thought was, I wanted to understand, in fact, what makes individuals choose to invest time and energy in a cause like this, to get involved in this kind of movement, and what better way, in fact, than to go and talk to them directly.

[00:06:00] But it wasn't easy because these were essentially groups - especially at the time - but groups that were very clandestine, that made very few public appearances, and above all that had a fear of all external elements, of everything that came from outside and everything that was "outsiders."

[00:06:21] So it was quite a job to finally get myself accepted into these groups, because that's what's so special about the research I've done, it's that it's field work, during which I spent four years - after all - in these movements, taking part in activities with the militants.

[00:06:44] So militant activities, but also social activities, taking the time to listen to them, to take them seriously, which doesn't mean justifying or excusing them either, but really wanting to understand them, showing empathy, in fact, criticism to really get inside look at these movements.

[00:07:08] Karine Morin: So this interaction allowed you to meet them, what's the profile of a member of an extremist group in Québec? Do we recognize them on the street? Do they look like us? Are they so different? Tell us a little about this community you've come to know up close.

[00:07:26] Frédérick Nadeau: The first thing I'd say is that no, there's no typical profile, you won't necessarily recognize them on the street. One of the things that particularly surprised me in my research was that I had come away with a certain number of biases about these movements - when I say biases, it's just that I judged them before I knew them.

[00:07:52] So I had an imagination built up about who they could be, so it built up a lot with popular culture in particular, but well, when I went out into the field, the image I had in my head was Edward Norton in American History X, the movie.

[00:08:15] But then, we really do have neo-Nazi militants who are quite extreme to a certain extent - it exists, but I've met militants of this type who can be recognized on the street precisely because of, for example, their clothing, certain symbols - so it's not necessarily a typical profile, but a lot of young people in fact - university or CEGEP students.

[00:08:45] Often, people who take part in these movements are portrayed as being less educated, or perhaps living more in the regions, and we get certain ideas, in fact it's absolutely not that.

[00:09:01] There are young people from Montreal, there are young people from Québec City, there are young people from the regions of course, there are university students, there are young people with less education, there are young people with more manual, more traditional jobs, blue collar workers, there are white collar workers. It's far from being a homogeneous, unified movement in terms of profiles.

[00:09:28] Karine Morin: So how do you define it? What is their extremism? What is the extremism of these groups in Québec?

[00:09:38] Frédérick Nadeau: That's very, very, very interesting. Obviously, if you look at the literature, the academic literature, there's no consensus definition of what extremism is.

[00:09:56] In general, in common parlance, we'll essentially consider, we'll talk extremism to essentially designate political or religious actors who will advocate major revolutionary changes within a society who will demonstrate an uncompromising commitment, to an ideal or a group, therefore a certain form of dogmatism and who therefore attempt to reject the norms of the dominant society that are judged to be corrupt.

[00:10:34] And so, in the end, they want to impose their vision of the world, often through coercion, threats and violence, to the detriment of democratic principles. So that's the general definition in everyday language. 

[00:10:53] Now, one thing that's important to stress is that extremism isn't an immutable essence, it's not something that's given once and for all. You can radicalize and become an extremist, or stop being one. And extremism is always ultimately defined in reference to something else, and never anything that is extremist in itself

[00:11:22] It's always in relation to a norm of practices and beliefs that are generally accepted within a society, which means that the definition of extremism will vary, for example, depending on places, cultures, but also times.

[00:11:38] Elements, things that were considered extremist in certain parts of the world or at a certain time, are not necessarily so today. For the example I often come back to, it's usually the suffragettes - who, at the turn of the century at the end of the nineteenth, beginning of the twentieth were demanding the right to vote for women - were considered extremists, radicals in their day.

[00:12:06] Whereas today there aren't many people who would question women's right to vote. So it's not something that's considered extremist today, whereas it was back then, and then you could do the same exercise from one culture to another what we consider extremist or radical here isn't necessarily so elsewhere. 

[00:12:27] Karine Morin: So, this question, in your opinion, what factors do you observe that would currently explain what seems to be a rise in power of these groups? What's going on around us to explain that they're present, that we're talking about them a lot, etc. 

[00:12:45] Frédérick Nadeau: It's a multi-layered answer, but I'd say, generally speaking, you can consider a collective or individual actor to be extremist on the basis of either these ideologies, attitudes or modes of action.

[00:13:03] So, in terms of ideologies, an actor is going to be extremist if he promotes policies or ideas that go against human rights or democratic principles, for example. I'm talking about today's society, so, for example, questioning human rights, rights for certain minorities.

[00:13:29] Well, democracy was founded first and foremost on the idea of public deliberation, contradictory exchange. So, we're going to argue, and then together, we're going to come up with a concerted negotiated solution, that's the principles of democracy. 

[00:13:48] Now, what we're seeing is that there are a number of groups at the moment who are precisely displaying a dogmatic attitude, who are going to refuse to enter into dialogue, who are going to refuse any form of discussion, any possibility reaching a compromise, ultimately, with a political adversary. So, the groups we're currently observing, which we categorize as extremist or radical, there are several who fall into this category.

[00:14:17] Then, there's the question of modes of action. Obviously, it's the fact of using, for example, intimidation tactics, slander, threats, harassment, obviously, violence, terrorism and all that. These are elements that are considered unacceptable in a democratic society like ours.

[00:14:40] These movements - I say these movements, it's general, we're not aiming at one in particular - but so the extremist movements we see emerging today or which seem to be more active today, tend to have these characteristics. So, in terms of ideologies, attitudes and modes of action, mainly anti-democratic, essentially, principles that go against the generally accepted principles of democracy. 

[00:15:07] Karine Morin: You also said that at the beginning, when you first became interested in this phenomenon, it was difficult to find them, they were rather clandestine. Fifteen years later or more, what is it that makes us feel their presence, that we're aware that they're there, that we're perhaps looking over our shoulder at night, saying to ourselves, "Am I in the wrong place in town?”

[00:15:33] Is it our political discourse that made them like - a little - that made them want to speak out in contraction with a political discourse is we're saying, again, it's social media that allowed them to find each other.

[00:15:48] What are - on the external culture side - what explains, as I was saying, that we seem to be more aware of their existence than perhaps when they were groups that were little talked about, little known and rather clandestine. 

[00:16:02] Frédérick Nadeau: You're right. I think there's a certain increased visibility, there's more attention being paid to them than there was a few years ago, because, well, I have to say, I think extremism has always existed, will always exist, the fact that there are counter-cultural subversive protest movements that challenge the status quo, there always are, it's still pretty normal. 

[00:16:33] Especially in a democratic society like ours, which emphasizes freedom of conscience and freedom of expression. So, it's important to distinguish here between having extremist ideas and having extremist actions.

[00:16:48] We live in a democratic society and it's not illegal, in fact, to have extreme ideas as long as they stay within the limits set by the law, notably hate speech, hate promotion, defamation and all that. 

[00:17:04] Karine Morin: Incitement to violence, above all.

[00:17:06] Frédérick Nadeau: But among the factors, well, there are obviously several. You named a few, obviously, the crisis. I'll start with the crisis, the question of the crisis, these are crisis movements in general, when there's a certain instability within society or we feel there are windows opportunity for change, all that, that's generally we'll see this kind of movement appear.

[00:17:35] Remember Simone de Beauvoir's famous quote: "Never forget that all it will take is a political, economic or religious crisis for women's rights to be called into question." And then what are we currently observing, notably with the overthrow of Roe vs. Wade in the United States, the arrival of Donald Trump.

[00:17:57] There's a growing anti-abortion movement in Canada and Québec, to the point where very recently, last October, Minister Martine Biron felt the need to publish a government strategy to ensure women's access to reproductive health care.

[00:18:19] So it really shows that there's window of opportunity for this. But we're talking about an economic crisis that generates uncertainty, anxiety and frustration. We can obviously talk about socio-cultural changes too, so we're at a time when certain established norms are being called into question, whether it's in relation to gender, whether it's in relation to racism, de-colonial movements, for example, whether it's on an environmental level.

[00:18:52] And then there's a fertile breeding ground for extremist movements to emerge from this context. You also mentioned social movements. I was going to say social media, so there you have it exactly. So, as you mentioned, the notion of the echo chamber is well known today, so I don't necessarily need to describe it in detail.

[00:19:19] But then, social media, which obviously create communities, enclose them in echo chambers, which can also facilitate recruitment for groups. We also know that social media algorithms tend to favor polarizing content, because it creates reactions, clicks and all that. So we know that at that level, it has an impact too.

[00:19:43] But I think that really the most important factor, in my opinion, at least the one I could really feel had the most impact on the ground in individuals was a feeling of alienation. It's really the feeling of being marginalized, of being excluded from the dominant society that makes people more likely to adhere to certain extremist ideologies.

[00:20:17] Now, this feeling can be proven, let's say, or it can just be felt, that's not the point. For example, young white men who feel persecuted may or may not be right to feel persecuted, that's not the point. The question is whether they actually feel persecuted. 

[00:20:38] And this feeling is real for them. And often, that's really what's going to lead to commitment, a feeling of being excluded, a feeling of injustice, in fact a feeling of being the victim of something. It's a feeling which, well, there's a little joke about it or, well, I don't really know how to describe it, but it's a feeling of injustice, a feeling "which puts fire in the belly and iron in the mind".

[00:21:11] So that's really what we're seeing. These people feel excluded, they don't feel listened to, they don't feel taken seriously. And so it makes them angry, it creates a feeling of injustice, and that's really what leads them to want to mobilize, to want to get involved in this type of movement.

[00:21:29] Karine Morin: You just kind of maybe described one of the explanations people give for a re-election of Donald Trump in the United States. So, what effects do you think this American politician has had, this movement of polarization in the United States since 2016.

[00:21:50] What's the effect on Québec and would it be possible to imagine if it weren't for what was happening in the United States, we might not have what we have here in Québec. 

[00:22:01] Frédérick Nadeau: It's true that without the United States, we might not be observing it with the same intensity, we might not be observing it in the same way, but we could come back to it in fact, to take the first half of the question so yes, obviously, it's had an impact, notably the election of Donald Trump, not only, but notably we're observing it. 

[00:22:26] In fact, we observed was that it allowed them to normalize certain discourses, and also to disinhibit certain players. I'm going to explain what I mean here, but I was going to observe directly in the field.

[00:22:46] When I began my research, so 2010-11 when I started thinking about the project, my arrival in the field was in 2014. Back then, when I announced to my colleagues and friends that I was going to do a doctoral thesis on the far right in Québec, the response I got was "The far right? In Québec?" as if it didn't exist. 

[00:23:10] In fact, it was really a movement that wasn't visible, it wasn't organized - especially in 2014 - it was really a somewhat confidential micro-culture, they organized underground concerts, conferences, but nothing really public. 

[00:23:29] And then, from 2017 - so the 2016 election the election of Donald Trump is 2016, late November 2016, there was the enthronement so in 2017, January 2017 - and then what we saw was really a growth in the activities of extreme right-wing movements in Québec. 

[00:23:52] First of all, the appearance of different groups. It was from 2016 - 2017 that we saw the appearance of groups like La Meute, like Storm Alliance, like the Soldiers of Odin, like Atalante. And that's really we started to see these groups organizing demonstrations. So they were moving out of private, clandestine spaces and taking to the streets.

[00:24:19] And so there was no longer this, let's say, embarrassment of showing up publicly and claiming to be a group at the time, it was mainly anti-immigration - again, the ideology has evolved, transformed, there have been a lot of things - it's really focused on the question of identity, immigration and all that.

[00:24:44] And so we really see that it corresponds to Trump's election in 2016. In fact, there are two peaks and I report on them in a report I published in 2021, which is called chronologie des activités chronologie de l'extrême droite [ed. note: the title of the publication is « Extrême droite au Québec. Une chronologie des événements et de la violence. »]. I can't remember the exact title, but it traces the activities and violence of the extreme right in Québec.

[00:25:07] And then we see that there are two major peaks 2017 so the election of Donald Trump and 2020, the pandemic - the pandemic which really had a considerable effect too on the spread of these ideas, the restructuring of networks which are publicly discussed without necessarily any negative consequences.

[00:25:28] So, we're really talking a normalization, then a disinhibition of activists who now claim to be more and more open. This is even more visible, by the way, since Trump's most recent re-election in 2024.

[00:25:42] If we go back to the 2016 - 2017 election, there were still relatively few players particularly in Québec who said they were pro-Trump, it remained a political position that was difficult to assume.

[00:25:58] Or that few people openly assumed, whereas today, with the re-election, support for Trump is much more open. So we can really see that there's an evolution here.  

[00:26:11] Karine Morin: I'm curious, because I'm based in Ottawa, were you aware of the movements in Québec that rallied to the Occupy cause, would they have come in significant numbers from Québec to Ottawa here, for at that time, really a pretext of pandemic and restrictions related to the pandemic. 

[00:26:32] But it was also much broader than that. We see the Québec movements merge with those coming from the West, or perhaps from Ontario as well?

[00:26:42] Frédérick Nadeau: Yes, ah well, absolutely, it was a rather particular moment, I'd say, in the long history of extremist movements, and I'm talking particularly about right-wing extremism because that's essentially what I'm looking at. 

[00:27:00] But it was a very special movement, because we saw a convergence of groups from French-speaking Québec with groups from English-speaking Canada, who demonstrated together. 

[00:27:19] So, there's a kind of convergence that was little particular, but which was limited in time. That's really interesting, because I think it's an element that's quite particular to Québec, where the extreme right has historically tended to look to Europe for inspiration, whereas in English Canada, we felt a little more directly the influence of the United States. 

[00:27:44] But with recent developments, in Québec we can feel that there's an American and Anglo-Saxon influence in general, which is a little more important, we can see that ideas are circulating, discourses are circulating, the arguments are often exactly the same, when you look at the English-speaking ecosystems, then the French-speaking ecosystems. 

[00:28:07] Karine Morin: So just to get back to this occupation, some of the two are before the courts, and we're expecting judgments or even sanctions to be imposed. Do you see any action being taken against these leaders? Are we going to be able to counter these movements.

[00:28:29] What can we say as we look to the future? Are you a bit optimistic, do you have any ideas, action that we can take if we want these movements to calm down rather than see them become more animated with what's happening even more on the US side, but not only. 

[00:28:51] So, looking to the future, do you have any optimism? What do you think we could do? 

[00:28:57] Frédérick Nadeau: So, I'm going to adopt a posture that's neither optimistic nor pessimistic. Well, because I realize that my role is first and foremost that of an observer, but then, having said that, yes, you mentioned that at the moment, there are various judgments being made about certain leaders. 

[00:29:20] Honestly, I don't think it's going to slow these groups down, you could say that it could have a dissuasive effect, for example, but, if you look at the discourse of these actors who are profoundly anti-system, who have almost no confidence at all in the institutions, that the justice system imposes sanctions is going to be seen mainly as the power that's trying to silence us, that's trying to censor us. 

[00:30:01] So it's more likely, unfortunately, to have the opposite effect and radicalize them even more when they feel that the whole system is working against them. I mentioned earlier the question of the feeling of alienation, the feeling of injustice, which is a very powerful motor for radicalization, and then for involvement in these movements.

[00:30:27] So these sanctions can have a social utility, certainly, we're in a state of law, it has to be done, but in terms of radicalization as such, it's likely have relatively little impact. 

[00:30:42] Having said that, if we want, for example, to think about possible solutions, obviously there's work to be done in terms of promoting critical thinking among young people, also digital literacy, so how do algorithms work, how do you identify sources and all that? 

[00:31:03] So I think that's work that's already being done on a daily basis in our educational institutions, but there's certainly more that could be done.

[00:31:14] Also in terms of the supervision of digital platforms, there is certainly work that could be done on this, whether in terms of regulation, content, moderation, what circulates on platforms and also in terms of the transparency of algorithms, we know that algorithms tend to favor extremist and polarizing content.

[00:31:39] We could obviously talk about strengthening legal frameworks. So, right now in Canada, we have a certain amount of jurisprudence on the issue of hate speech and hate promotion. But there's still work to be done - I'm not a jurist - but I've read several jurists and I've talked with them, and clearly when it comes to definitions, it's not always clear what constitutes hate speech.

[00:32:09] So I think there's clearly work to be done on that front, and then I'll finish, perhaps at government level. Obviously, there's work to be done on that front, and we can talk about it at length, but I'd perhaps mention transparency and communications. 

[00:32:27] The government could very clearly make more efforts in this area, especially in terms of transparency, because we notice in the speeches of extremists, and here it's not just right-wing extremists, it can be left-wing extremists, religious extremists, but essentially, it's really this feeling that the elites, the governments, the politicians, are totally disconnected from the daily realities of citizens, are hiding things from us, not telling us the whole truth, that there's corruption. 

[00:33:00] So these are all elements that foster, let's say, a certain cynicism, and a loss of confidence in institutions. So, I think that in terms of transparency, in terms of communication, there are certainly still efforts that could be made to foster a certain public conversation, in fact, a certain resilience at community level too.

[00:33:28] I think it would be important, in view of the polarization we're seeing now, to open up spaces for discussion, to get away from the 'friend-enemy' logic we've entered into to some extent. In a democracy, we should see ourselves more as adversaries with whom we need to debate and find compromises, negotiate, and not as enemies who need to be eradicated, annihilated, made to disappear. 

[00:33:58] I think that 'just with this' - and I say just with this in big quotes - but I think that these could be avenues that we could explore to possibly prevent radicalization because that's we also want, I think that prevention is much more important than punishment, for example.

[00:34:21] Karine Morin: I think you're throwing down a fine challenge to democracy and all those who believe in it. I think we're coming to the end, but thank you very much, Frédérick Nadeau, very interesting work you're doing and what you've been able to present to us today

[00:34:38] So we'll certainly be following what's happening close to home, but also a little further afield with extremist movements that have just recently put an end to an authoritarian regime - if I'm thinking much further afield in Syria - that will certainly be something to follow too. So, around the world, you won't be short of research material, it seems, and not yet in Québec either. Thank you once again, it's been very interesting. 

[00:35:07] Frédérick Nadeau: Thank you very much.

[00:35:10] Karine Morin: Thank you for listening to the Big Thinking Podcast and thank you to our guest, Frédérick Nadeau. I would also like to thank our friends and partners at the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, and the production company CitedMedia, without whom this podcast would not be possible. 

[00:35:28] You can find all the episodes on your favorite podcast platform, and let us know what you thought of this episode by connecting with us on social media. À la prochaine!